Hey amigos! Welcome to Green Girls, the podcast that follows our journey (and struggles) to becoming green.
We decided to split up some of our heavier episodes with some light-hearted judging people on the internet. Yep, we are visiting Reddit and looking at some vegan-themed 'Am I The Asshole' posts. Judge along with us in the comments.
If you liked this episode please leave a review, and connect with us on Instagram with @greengirls.podcast
Chloe: We acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands on which we record this podcast.
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
Chloe: Quick disclaimer in case anyone is listening to this with kids around, we talk about some sensitive seasonal topics, if you catch my drift. Let's get back to the podcast.
Chloe: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Green Girls. This is episode... four, five?
Mikaela: Goodness, where are we?
Chloe: I'm not sure I know what was recorded, but I don't know. How am I releasing them?
Yes. So we've actually recorded maybe three more podcasts than what you guys will see at this point. But it was going to be some pretty heavy stuff. And so we decided to plonk this lighthearted one right in the middle. So Mikaela and I today are going to be going through Reddit, which is, you know...Is like a questionable place on the Internet. You might have heard of a subreddit called Am I the Asshole? And we have got our intern Jake to look through. And he has picked a few threads that involve veganism. So we're going to go through them today. Michaela, you want to kick us off with the first one?
Mikaela: Sure can. Now, I haven't actually seen these. I was I was told "I will email you the links, but you are not allowed to look at them." So...I'm going to do this is the first one:
Am I the asshole for giving my daughter's vegan friend meaty meals during sleepovers?
Mikaela: Oh, so in that first title, I'm going to say probably yes.
Chloe: Yeah, maybe, maybe.
Mikaela: Okay. So we'll start off my daughter and her friend M are both 12 years old. And like to have sleepovers every now and then. M's family maintains a strict vegan diet where she isn't even allowed to drink milk. Her parents are nice people. They're a bit on the neurotic side. Okay, starting well. M is a bright young girl and she's a good friend to my daughter but I notice how much smaller and paler she is compared to my daughter. I think it's slightly tied to her family's diet. So lots of assumptions there already.
Mikaela: So whenever she's over, I always make a big, meaty meal for them. Last weekend I made some cheeseburgers and steak for them on the grill with a big glass of milk. M absolutely loves it and always politely asked for more, which I happily provide. For snacks, I give them some of my venison jerky. For breakfast, I typically make a big plate of scrambled eggs and bacon and again with a big glass of milk. Despite her size, M always wolfs down whatever I make. And I have to say, every time she leaves, it looks like she has a healthy glow to her. And I really shouldn't be doing this, but I think M is a bit malnourished. Nothing against vegans or anything. She knows she'll get in trouble if she tells her folks. I think she fibs a bit to her parents about what she eats. Am I the asshole for letting my daughter's vegan friend eat meat?
Chloe: I don't know. I mean...If M is, like, wanting to eat it, I guess, you know, that's her choice. It's hard if her family is saying no, but I feel like it also kind of sounds like the the mother of the friend is a bit like...
Chloe: She's very assuming and she's assuming that her diet is better.
It is weird because if the daughter doesn't necessarily understand why she's following a vegan diet, then she might not have made up for herself whether that is the right diet for her or not. So you can't really push it.
Mikaela: Oh, gosh. I remember my sister had a party when she was young, probably like maybe must have been primary school age or very early high school. And she had a friend come over and her friends family was like very, very strict on what you can eat. No junk food, no snacks, like all really healthy. And my mom actually found this girl stealing. Well, not stealing. I guess it was it was for people to eat. But taking the snacks that were put out and putting them in her pockets or hiding them in her bag.
Mikaela: So it might even be like, well, you know. You haven't experienced that before. So you get excited and go, Oh my gosh, I need to have all this stuff, which, you know, might be the case in this.
Chloe: And also maybe it's about rebelling against your parents being like, Oh, well, you said, I can't eat this so I'm going to eat it.
Yeah, yeah. I have so many questions. Like, does she understand what vegan is and therefore what non-vegan food is? Does she understand that what she's eating at this other person's house is non-vegan and what that means?
Mikaela: Yeah, well, exactly right.
Chloe: She might just be like, Oh. We had the best burger, It was so good. But like, if the only burgers you've ever had are vegan, then you might assume that they all are.
Mikaela: Exactly like I think in a lot of vegan households with kids growing up, the, you know, going to be like, Oh, we're having vegan schnitzels for dinner or do you want vegan pancakes? It's just going to be like, we're having schnitzels...Do you want pancakes.
Chloe: Yeah, I feel like if I were this kid's mother, I would be angry. So I would say, you are an asshole.
Mikaela: I am too.
Chloe: I feel like the way they've gone about it is quite an asshole way to do it. If it were me as the mother. Not the vegan mother, the other mother. That was like messaging Reddit right now. I would have spoken to the vegan girl's parents.
Chloe: Like, what is it? Why are you doing it? Like, does she follow the same values as you? Or is it because she's in your house that she eats the same way?
Chloe: Because they are 12. And I know my old boss, his daughter, decided to go vegetarian when she was younger than 12. So she understood what was happening.
Mikaela: Mm hmm.
Chloe: And I probably expect that she'll go vegan in the future, but just on her own terms she was like I'm going to go vegetarian. I don't agree with eating animals. And I think that mum and dad at the time thought it might be a phase, I don't know. But they fully catered for her, made it easy to do, and she's just happy doing it.
Mikaela: That's great.
Chloe: So at 12, she might understand, you know, obviously what vegan is, what vegetarian is, what that diet is, and therefore what eating an animal would mean. So it might be that she's like, Fuck you parents. I'd actually don't agree with this diet... Give me all that meat.
Mikaela: Exactly. Well, I think we might need, like a little bit more backstory is always the question. So the unanswered that if we scroll down. Oh, yes, here we go. So says Original Poster (OP) has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole. "It's an ethical dilemma. Do I feed what I think is a malnourished girl again against her family's wishes? Or do I abide by what they say and contribute to stunted a child's growth?" So she is assuming that these kids I mean, kids, it is like they develop at different stages. So it might just be that this kid like is a different build.
Chloe: That's a huge like, I guess medical and nutritional assumption. If this family's been vegan for a long time, they probably know more about nutrition.
Chloe: I've just got to say, between the people I know that just follow a regular diet and a vegan diet, the ones who follow a vegan diet have had to work at making it nutritionally balanced. Yeah. Because they know about their diets versus someone with a and I just say regular diet like haven't thought about their diet. And, traditionally lots more of them don't really know what they're putting into their body and they could be nutritionally in deficit if that's the right thing to say.
Mikaela: Yeah, just as easily. That's exactly right. So, um, you scroll down a little bit more and there's a couple of comments there. So someone says, "I think M is a bit malnourished, is where I deemed you the asshole." "You are judging her family and her family's diet. And you're doing this out of some misguided form of activism. You think you're the hero here saving her from some injustice. It would be one thing if you were maybe just trying to make the kid happy one time and keeping a little secret. But you're doing this to make a statement. You're actively and defiantly disrespecting her parents."
Mikaela: Look, I. I think in this instance, I probably agree, given the information that we've been given, like, there's definitely more to any, any story. But yes, that's true. All we have is what's written here. We can't know exactly.
Chloe: Plus it's reddit like, it's all about judging people from the comfort of your own home, right?
Mikaela: Yeah. That's, that's the fun side of it, I guess.
Chloe: And also there are so many people that just make up stuff and put it on Reddit. Can't forget that.
Mikaela: Yeah, well, actually, funny you say that. Someone's commented that says this whole post seems fake to me, to be honest.
Oh yeah. Interesting point. I kind of thought of this. They said "I have known a lot of vegetarians and vegans and literally every single one of them have gone horribly sick anytime they try to introduce little meat back into their diet. If M has been vegan all their life, wouldn't they be getting horribly ill or else?
Chloe: Hmm, true.
Mikaela: Like, if I if I accidentally have some dairy or something in a meal cooked out, like, I will know.
Chloe: Yeah, good point. I wonder what the case is if you've never been introduced to it.
Mikaela: Mhm. Mhm. Legit.
Chloe: Anyone more knowledgeable than us knows about this? Please don't send us a message. I'd really be interested in that.
Chloe: Lots of people that I know that have become what's the word like? Can drink milk, but like now they can't. What's the actual.
Mikaela: A lactose Intolerance.
Chloe: Yeah, lactose intolerant. Like, I've got friends that have had milk throughout their life, and now all of a sudden they can't have it. Or after a break from having it, now they can't have it.
Chloe: So yeah, I really wonder.
Mikaela: Definitely a real thing. But it looks like all the comments sort of thinking yes, you are an asshole.
Chloe: Mhm. Yeah.
Mikaela: So is this another comment: what you described is way too much for meat. like meat with milk in the morning. Eggs with meat with milk.
Chloe: Yeah. For only one meal and a breakfast. Yeah. So true.
Mikaela: Yeah. Have you ever been like... Are you one of those people who just drank a glass of milk?
Chloe: No, I don't. I don't get it. It. It tasted weird for me even then.
Mikaela: Yeah. I feel like it was only ever like a cereal thing or like a I dunno, cooking thing or that, that actually sat down and had like a glass of milk just for fun.
Chloe: The only time I remember like properly downing milk was my first year of university when I had some sort of tooth issue. I had to have a root canal. But there were a few days between me finding this out and the root canal happening, and I was in just agonizing pain so much of the day. Took a lot of painkillers. But the number one thing that really helped to calm it down was I just would have a big glass of milk and I would literally just hold it in my mouth, like just milk. And for some reason, something about it seemed to kind of coat my mouth and that provided some relief and that's it. Like I used milk then. And I think I completely was like, Well, that's enough for me.
Mikaela: You've over done it. Now you just associate milk with a root canal?
Chloe: Yeah, milk in a cereal. Of course I had. And milk intake that took it took me ages to get used to like oh milk and tea. And now that to me is what tastes normal and regular milk and tea is kind of bizarre.
Mikaela: Absolutely. I was going to say, like Jake, I think it was since 2018, he hasn't really had like traditional milk. He's been on the alternative milks and when he used to work with me or go to customers houses, he'd be like, someone to make a coffee for me and I'd forget to say oh, no milk or just black, whatever. Yeah. And he's like, I'd get the coffee, and it wasn't nice. Like, it's funny how your taste buds develop to something. Yeah.
Chloe: And then when you go back to it, you're like, Oh, this is not quite what I wanted. It was like a strange aftertaste.
Mikaela: Yeah, I don't know. I haven't had milk in a long time.
Yeah, I know I have had milk because sometimes it's on, like, serious offers. And actually the main reason why I ever have milk now is when I run out of milk in the office and there's open milk already there. Maybe that's a guilty, guilty secret for me. That and the cookies. If there are cookies at work, I can't stop myself.
Mikaela: Look, I feel like it's sort of good that I'm vegan because there's like cookies and everything. I just don't even look at them because I know I can't eat them. So it's like it's good, but I feel like I'm missing out. Like every now and then you're like, Oh, that looks that cookie looks delicious. But it's sort of like almost a forced diet because I'm not just like snacking because it's there. Like, I physically have to go source the foods that I can eat. So it's more like effort.
Chloe: Yes, that's true. And I should have that outlook as well, just like stick to your guns.
Mikaela: I mean, I eat a lot of junk food even without that.
Chloe: Right. So, you know you need to be prepared so you're really prepared and have like a full cupboard.
Mikaela: Exactly. Exactly. Come with pockets full of snacks.
Chloe: Yes. Oh, now that I know those cookies are so good from Woolworths.
Mikaela: Oh, yeah. The granola cookies love them.
Chloe: Oh my God. All my money's going there now.
Okay, well, that person sounds like they did a lot of asshole, Terry, to be honest with you.
Mikaela: Yeah, I think all the comments sort of agree as well, although I don't really use reddit that much, but I'm learning like they've got YTAH which is short fot you're the asshole. And then like people say why they think it. It looks to me it looks like everyone I said yes, you are the a-hole. So we'll link these anyway and you can have a bit of a read through the comments. This thing will be here forever.
Chloe: Yeah. You can judge as well.
Mikaela: Yeah. Have a good have a good look.
Chloe: Yes. All right. I'll go to the next one. "Am I the asshole for not accommodating my brother's vegan fiancee?
Full disclosure, I do eat meat, eggs and dairy. That being said, I'm lazy and prepping and cooking meat takes more work than I'm willing to do a lot of the time. So I've built up a pretty okay repertoire of vegan and vegetarian meals. That's why I volunteered to cook last night for a small family dinner, even though I would normally never. I love my mom to bits, but if the first step isn't browning a pound of ground beef, she's a little lost on what to make. This is all a thing because my brother has recently gotten engaged to a vegan woman. None of us have really spent a lot of time with her due to pandemics and generally having our own lives. The time I have spent with her has been perfectly nice. I thought this would also be perfectly nice. So I did my best. I put together a Dijon vinaigrette, salad, pasta tossed with roasted asparagus and cherry tomatoes. And because this is America where carb on carb doesn't have to be just a dream. Some bread I vetted to make sure it didn't have milk or eggs in it. She could eat every single thing I made.
At least I thought so.
We sit down. Plates are dished. She has questions. Whatever. Fair enough. I can imagine that she's been in situations where things seem safe to eat, but surprised as honey in the salad dressing or something like that. Reassurances are made. I did my homework, but she has other complaints. You roasted the veggies and olive oil? There's olive oil in the salad dressing? The pasta isn't whole wheat? This is white bread? Yes, vegan, all of it, but not stripped down to as fewer calories as possible and now she won't eat it. She just sat there and tore one of the rolls up into tiny pieces until the table was cleared. Once again, it's all vegan. I guess that's just a dietary preference that she doesn't want to eat. "
Mikaela: Well, you could have specified before, like, you know, these guys made a meal.
Chloe:Yeah, right. "My brother texted me later that night about how fucked up it was. She has to go home hungry and this is where I may be the asshole. I replied something in the effect of saying I thought I had to cook to get veganism, not an eating disorder. He told me to go fuck myself, which again, fair. Now I imagine a cold war is brewing and my mum is inevitably going to get sucked in. I also could have tried to make something healthier though I don't think what was served was that bad. Am I the asshole?"
Mikaela: Okay at first glance? I don't think so. I feel like the effort was all there. Like, obviously, yes, people have very different ideas of veganism, but it's still technically vegan it just might not be as healthy as this person would normally eat.
Chloe: Yeah, I agree. He accommodated vegan. Like, look what he said to his brother was pretty. Pretty shit. It's not an eating disorder, it's just she wants to eat a certain way. But he was not told that and honestly from what we know if the brother had specified the girlfriend only eats certain foods it sounds like he would have tried to accommodate that because he already tried to accommodate the vegan part.
Mikaela: Exactly. I agree. So yeah, that's frustrating to you though, because like someone's made the effort to make sure that she can eat everything and bread. Like, it's hard sometimes to find, you know, a particular product, especially I feel like in America.
Chloe: Yeah, I think America just throws ingredients around willy nilly, like, does it need butter? No. Will it be there? Yes.
Mikaela: I feel like the effort was there. And it just means that, you know, personal preference, like some people prefer salads, some people prefer pasta. But I would say that sounds like a good meal.
Chloe: Yeah 100%, so good. This guy can come over.
Mikaela: Yeah. And look, I think the way it was handled in the end is probably not ideal. Even the brother texting originally being like how effed up it was that she had to go home hungry. It's like, well, she didn't have to.Like it was all vegan. It just. Wasn't her normal taste.
Chloe: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like some courtesy would have been great there to say thank you so much for trying. I happened to not be able to eat it for these reasons and if she is actually is that fussy then usually you would know to specify that beforehand.
Mikaela: Mhm. Definitely. Even the brother to like the, the brother of the fiancé could have worded up the brother who was cooking being like hey by the way you know, she's quite particular and she won't eat these things. So maybe if we could do this meal instead of like, Hey, I'm happy to help you, I can bring some goodies or...
Chloe: Yes, yeah. Anything, any sort of extra communication would have been great here, but the actual title even might be also for not accommodating my brother's vegan fiancee. It sounds like this guy really did try to accommodate the bigger fiance. He just didn't know What that would actually entail.
Mikaela: Mm, I agree. Let's have a look at what other people think. Yeah. So I think the only way he could have been the asshole is for saying that she has an eating disorder.
Chloe: Yeah. Yes, I Do agree. That that was very rude.
Mikaela: Yep. Not very good. Ah here is a comment: "It sounds like his fiance's whole food plant based, which is a type of veganism. But most vegans are not this way." Yeah. So she should have been communicated as something other than simply vegan.
Chloe: Yeah, that's true. That kind of goes back to one of the secret listeners the other week who was. Vegan and gluten free and people forgot about the gluten free pot. And so she was like, Oh, screw it, I'll just go to being gluten free and not so people remember that and not the vegan part.
Mikaela: Prioritizing the one. Yeah, exactly.
Chloe: Yeah. Like she needed to stress Whole Foods plant based, not just plant based or not just vegan.
Mikaela: Yeah. I mean, I don't know how many comments we want to read through. I think we both pretty on the same page around this one. The effort was there and it's an honest mistake.
Chloe: Yeah. Heaps of effort went into it. Absolutely.
Mikaela: Yeah. Everyone says you did accommodate her. You know, she had one dietary restriction. Put everything vegan, not just in options. That's true. Actually, every single thing was vegan, it wasn't just like one thing.
Chloe: Yeah, I agree, not the asshole.
Mikaela: Someone says here: "if I were you, I'd be super passive aggressive and say something along the lines of I'm so sorry I haven't upgraded my seer abilities yet and thus was unable to just guess your girlfriend's food restrictions. I'll let you know when I'm a full on psychic, so I can have any information without anyone telling me. And then you're welcome to my house again."Oh, damn, don't cross that person!
Chloe: Shots fired! All right, good. We have one last asshole story today.
Mikaela: Yes. And that is... Am I the asshole for being vegan and pushing my friends kids to stop eating meat?
I, 30 female, have been vegan for over ten years for ethical reasons. I'm also nonconfrontational as hell and pretty shy, so I wouldn't say I'm a pushy vegan by any means. I am friends with and often eat with omnivores and my family isn't even vegan or vegetarian."
Chloe: Okay. Sounds very relatable right now.
Mikaela: Yeah. Oh, I know exactly. "My friend Rachel, 32 female, is a single mom and asked if I would mind letting her daughter Rosie, five, female, stay with me for a few days so she could get a bit of a break.
I love the kiddo and don't have a kids. So I said yes. Rachel was even kind enough to send over premade meals and snacks so I didn't have to cook. It's important to note that I don't eat meat substitutes often, so my meals looked very different from Rosie's as the protein was beans, tofu, etc. Rosie asked me why I didn't ever have chicken like her. I just said, Some people don't like to eat animals, but your family does, and that's okay too. She looked confused and said she doesn't eat animals. I just let it go and changed the subject as I figured she misunderstood me. She went home the next morning. When she got home, I got a very angry call from Rachel.Apparently Rosie is a big animal lover, so Rachel told her", Oh, my gosh, sorry. I just, my eyes were ahead of my brain. "So apparently Rosie is a big animal lover. So Rachel told her that chicken, beef, etc. grew on trees so she wouldn't get upset. I don't have kids, so I don't know how she pulled this off, but whatever. Rachel came clean as Rosie wouldn't stop asking. It has been two weeks and Rosie will not eat meat and is apparently distrustful of anything her mum serves her. Rachel is pissed at me and says this is my fault and this is something all parents tell their kids."
I have never, ever, ever heard any parent tell their kids that meat grows on trees.
Chloe: No way. Oh, my gosh.
Mikaela: But imagine that like five I feel like is young but they can comprehend things like imagine going to school and being like, Oh, that cow tree or whatever. And the other kids would be like, What the f?
Chloe: Yeah, there was laugh at them. Like, at some point someone's going to say, No, that came from an animal.
Mikaela: No. Have you seen that video of that little girl? It was like quite a few years ago now and she's like mid meal and then realizes what it is and she's just like crying whilst the mom or the dad explains to her like, yeah, that's this. That's what this is. That's this animal. And the kid's like, But why? I don't want to eat.
Chloe: Yeah,I think a lot of kids would really appreciate knowing what they're eating.
Mikaela: I think so. I think so. And I feel like this obviously just goes to show you that at that age, they can still make the decision if, you know, if they don't want to eat that.
Chloe: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, this sounds like because the parents are comfortable eating this way and it would be very time consuming to then cook another way, like you should eat what we ate, and I will lie to you to make sure that you do, because I know the truth would upset you.
Mikaela: But I wonder how that conversation like that topic even came up. Like was Rosie like, Oh, my mom wants this. And then the mom was like, Oh, it's beef. And she's like, What's beef? And she says. Oh. It grows on trees. But it's funny because I see all these books and all these toys with, like, animal sounds, and you've got the picture of the cow, and you press the button and it goes moo. And it's like, what does the chicken say?
Chloe: Do you remember? Friends, Phoebe sings the song. I guess I will sing it for you now. She's like the cow in the meadow goes, moo, the cow goes boo.The farmer comes up and bumps him on the head. And that's how we get hamburgers.
Mikaela: Yes, I do remember that!
Chloe: Like Rosie would have found out one day.
Mikaela: Yeah. So sad! All right, I'll keep going, she says. "I feel really bad. Rachel has a lot on her plate and this is adding stress. I thought I explained it in a child appropriate way, but I guess I didn't not. Am I the asshole?" Then she says, "Edit to answer some common questions. Someone asked what was the game plan for when Rosie inevitably found out? I'm wondering this, too. I have no idea. Two: How could Rachel not bring this up to you knowing you were a vegan? Rachel and I, for some reason, do not have meals together often. I don't think we have in years. We are both super busy people, especially Rachel, and mostly just grab quick coffee. Since my diet doesn't come up often, I don't think it was on my mind and she might have forgotten. And then number three, Rachel just dumped her kid on someone, is she a terrible mother? Rachel and I have known each other for a long time, ten plus years. And she trust me, she does not leave Rosie with casual acquaintances. Her baby daddy is a deadbeat who doesn't participate in Rosie's life. So she doesn't have many affordable childcare options."
Chloe: Hmm. Well, that's that's pretty understandable. And, yeah, she could have just forgotten about the dietary thing.
Mikaela: Definitely. I mean, but it is nice enough, like, she gave her pre-cooked meals for her kids. Like, that's. That's pretty damn thoughtful.
Chloe: Yeah, that's true. And you could assume at that point that it means, oh, she did remember that her friend is vegan and therefore wanted to make sure that her daughter had meals like meals that she was comfortable with, that therefore a vegan friend didn't have to cook herself.
Mikaela: Yeah, exactly. But I don't I'm not surprised that Rosie was like, oh, what are you eating? Like, why is that different to what I'm eating? Because, like, I feel like kids that age ask a bajillion questions.
Chloe: Oh, yeah. So for sure.
Mikaela: She would have been like, why is it different? Why am I eating this?
Chloe: And there are still things that I'm finding out today, like the amount of people I tell the baby chick thing to... Like even people that have chickens like as adults, finding out the male chicks are like basically killed at birth.
Chloe: Because they're useless in the industry. And I guess I probably found that out, I don't know, five years ago. So I was an adult as well. And like there are these things that we find out with that, oh okay. That's new information. That changes how I think about it. And now I need to decide if I'm okay with it or not. So is this girl. Who was? Was she five?
Mikaela: Five, yeah.
Chloe: So like, okay, now I have the information that what I'm eating comes from an animal, and I love animals and I'm not okay eating them. It sucks for this person's mother. That she has a lot on her plate now has to accommodate and deal with it. But she she has to now.
Mikaela: Exactly. I get like sometimes, yes. You can tweak the truth to your kids. Sometimes it's necessary. But I feel like that is a vital piece of information for a human being. Like, to know what you're eating or to know where things come from and to know what is the cow, what is chicken, what is all that.
Chloe: Yeah, and to be honest, actually as well, the author, whenever they're called, the person that wrote this, did say it in a fairly good way, saying like. some people choose to eat animals, some people don't. Your family chooses to eat them and that's okay.
Mikaela: Yeah, one of the comments is "quote, chicken and beef grow on trees. This is something all parents tell their kids. Nope, she made a stupid lie and was inevitably caught out, what I would have said if she'd seen, I don't know, an actual chicken running around or if someone at school had told her the same thing. In actuality it's probably the lie that's made the child lose trust. Not what the original poster told the child about their and veganism."
Chloe: Yes, that is so true.
Mikaela: True. What do you Do when you know, they see a chicken? Yeah. What's that? Oh, nothing.
Chloe: Yeah. Someone is going to say at some point and like, okay, maybe at five, you don't put two and two together that there happens to be an animal called chicken and a food called chicken. But at some point they will.
Mikaela: The next next one says, "I mean, I have certainly dodged the question. When my kids were at a sensitive age and in a picky eater stage, I knew that reminding them chicken came from chickens would mean they wouldn't eat it for three days. But I cannot imagine outright lying to my child about where meat comes from. Also, they have children's books about farms so that comes up before they even really start talking."
Another comment said, "When I was a little kid. I found out where asparagus came from, and that it was basically grass. And I flipped out and refused to eat asparagus for, like, six months. It really freaked me out that asparagus just grew like grass instead of like a tomato. I can really remember my feelings of betrayal and revulsion."
Chloe: Oh, the betrayal!
Mikaela: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I. I don't think they are [the asshole]. It's just an unfortunate situation. I feel like, exactly what you said, that she handled it well and just said, oh, some people don't like to eat animals, but, you know, some people don't. I think if you hadn't been given prior knowledge, be like, oh, don't talk to my kid about what you're eating and don't say anything about, you know, how are you to know?
Chloe: Yeah. So I'm just reading back again and it looks like the author didn't know before saying this stuff to the daughter that the daughter believed chicken and beef grow on trees. So like, what was she to do in that scenario? Like if Rachel had said Rosie believes this beforehand, then that would have been an ethical dilemma of ...Do you lie or do you tell the truth? But this wasn't even that, they thought they were saying a very child friendly thing and it turns out that Rachel had already previously lied, which you're quite right, and the commenter below is quite right. Like yeah, that lie created the distrust. And now Rosie is really distrustful of both.
Mikaela: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There's another comment here from the point of view of a parent. And then same thing. She says, "as a mom myself, I've never told my son this lie. He knew he was eating chicken. He didn't link chicken with Chickaletta from Paw Patrol until one day on the show something was mentioned about eating chicken. He asked me if he was eating Chickaletta . I said no, she was a cartoon, but some animals are bred for food for us to eat. He asked me what other food was animal, so I told him the truth and he was okay with it. Then he asked, Was hot dogs really dogs? I said, No it's still a sausage, no dogs in it. If you aren't truthful to your kids, then I won't trust you. God help us with the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas."
Chloe: Yeah. Yep. Me and Tarik have actually had conversations about that. And he's on the side of wanting your kids to know the truth from the word go. Whereas I had Father Christmas as a kid and it didn't do me dirty believing it at all. And like, maybe things like that are great for imagination, but kids have so much imagination anyway and will believe it fairies at the end of the garden without you saying fairies exist.
Mikaela: Yeah, exactly.
Chloe: So I've actually now come to the side of like, yeah, you know what? I don't mind if my kids do or don't know about Father Christmas, I'm happy for them to know the truth as long as they know that other kids might not.
Mikaela: That's the thing. Yeah. I feel like it's a really hard sort of thing to think about, especially when you don't have kids now. But yeah. When do you decide? Like when you know all the Christmas movies and all that stuff, like you want them to have that joy and imagination and that adventure, but then you tell them, Oh, you know, this, this, this... Well, I hope there's really hope we haven't ruined this for adults. Maybe someone out there that's like, what! No father Christmas, no tooth fairy!? So I apologize.
But it's exactly right. If you tell your kid, oh, no, you know, this is just something that's made up. And then they go and ruin some other poor kids, like, you know, perception. It's like. But then you can't really tell them, Oh, this isn't real, but you can't tell anyone. It's like, how is a kid? How are they going to wrap their head around that scenario?
Chloe: Yeah. I think actually for me, for some reason I believed in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, but I didn't believe in the Easter Bunny. And so my brother was the one that told me that it's not real. I can't remember how old I was, eight or nine or something. And I was like, No! Father Christmas is real. You know like sticking up for Santy. And I remember, like, sitting on the steps outside my room really, really glum, like, so glum. And my mom and my dad came out to me. It was like, it's true. I'm sorry. It's not real. And the first thing that then came to me was like. What about the Tooth Fairy? But for some reason, my kid brain knew the Easter Bunny was just a thing, and some people thought it was real, but that it was like a phase.
Mikaela: I am the same. I had a funny story and I think about it all the time it makes me laugh. I can't remember how old I would have been. I would have been pretty young and I feel like it must have been someone at school that said something about Santa Claus. And I came home and I asked my mom, and she was like, Yeah, Santa Claus isn't real. And I remember vividly, we were in the study and I my brain, instead of going, Oh, but what about the tooth fairy? I went, Oh, what about the Easter Bunny? Because, oh, my mom used to used to like go out the front down the driveway and like eat a carrot and like chew a little bit and like, spit it out and be like, Oh the Easter Bunny has come! So I was like, What about the Easter Bunny? And she looked at me, smiled, put her hands up, like in front of her, and did a couple of hops. I laugh about it so much now. Like, it's so funny. But at the time I was like, What!
Chloe: Aww. My mom actually maintains to this day when she was a kid... Very, very short side story where my parents live in the UK, they moved there. They bought the house very shortly before I was born. But actually when my mom was growing up, it was a holiday house owned by other people and it's where she used to stay as a kid. And so my childhood bedroom was sometimes her childhood bedroom. And in that bedroom, she maintains to this day that she heard jingling bells outside of her room. Like outside of the window. I was like, ah Santa! And I think even though she now knows. Part of her thinks that was Santa because she thinks were parents were drunk and asleep, and so doesn't think it was them.
Mikaela: Yeah,that just reminded me what my mom has this tradition of reading the night before Christmas. And even now she sends it through text messages. Anyway, one night we had gone to bed and we hadn't read the book, and we we all got up and we were like, oh, we haven't read the book. And I was in my sister's room and there was a landing with a rail and you could see down the stairs. We had just come out of this room. And my mum and dad were walking through the hallway with a big box and we were like, Mom, you haven't read the book. And she was like, what are you doing, go back to bed. And of course at the time I didn't think anything of it. Like I didn't realize. But they were wheeling in like in a bike! It was my bike, which I didn't realize until later. And she was like, oh i've ruined it! because at that stage I still believed in like, you know.
Chloe: Yeah, at my house. I think my parents always thought, why should Santa get all the credit? So we would have small stockings from Santa. And then big presents like if they spent like a lot of money was just from them like Santa is getting zero credit. Santa just gave you a DVD and an orange so that you would shut up while we sleep.
Mikaela: Exactly, exactly right.
Chloe: I think I even said to them one year, like, if Santa wants to keep me happy and like let you sleep in, he should give me a DVD. And you know what, that happened.
Mikaela: Smart, smart, kiddo.
Chloe: Yeah. You know, not saying he's not real or anything, but I've never seen my parents and Father Christmas in the same room.
Mikaela: There you go, yeah. Going back to our podcast topic, I do not think that she is an asshole. I think that she handled that very well.
Chloe: I agree. She did the best with what she could in that scenario. I feel for the mum in a way, because it sounds like she had a lot on her plate. But this does add to it. But she'll get used to it. It'll be fine.
Mikaela: Yeah, exactly. Right. Oh, goodness. Well. I guess that's the podcast.
Chloe: Thank you guys for listening to today's show. If you enjoyed it, we'd love and you can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. You can leave a little five star rating. You can follow the podcast on Instagram with Green Girls podcast. You can find me on Instagram with @bekindcoco or Mikaela on Instagram with @mikaelahofman or @RetroKittyVintage (Coming soon)
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